How do trade unions rate the government’s first term?
Nikki O’Reilly: Basically, it’s been a good start. Nobody expects it’s going to be easy after eighteen years of Tory rule. Obviously, we do have some key areas of disagreement with the government in terms of the privatisation agenda and PFI. I think we are aware of the level of expectation that surrounds the government and how fast change has to come to keep up with public opinion, especially with opinion among our members.
Matt Cain: I get the feeling there’s a real sense that we tolerated an awful lot in the first four years in order to wait for the next four.
Bill Brown: It was a case of waiting in the first term. Trade union recognition legislation came through, which was very important in getting access to workers and getting in on the ground. It wasn’t exactly how we wanted it but we got it. There was the minimum wage legislation as well, again it didn’t have the youth element in it, but it was enough for the first term.
Do you think the unions in some ways held off during the first term and there are going to be a lot more demands on the government during the second term?
NOR: I don’t think we held back. We weren’t just sitting around waiting for the economy to get on its feet and for everything to be stable to wait for things to happen in the second term.
Martin O’Donovan: There’s probably a two-pronged approach which will see unions firstly asking and campaigning for more, but also looking at the rights that exist and how they themselves can look to develop them and use them. I think one of the biggest challenges of the second term will be the information and consultation rights agenda.
MC: I think one of the biggest challenges is that there will be pressure within unions for them to start demanding things from the government. We must be careful because if we start doing that we will lose all credibility with the public. So the challenge will be to reconcile those internally that are saying we need to start ensuring things happen and keeping up the positive public image of being a constructive partner with government.
On some of the key issues different unions seem to be adopting different attitudes towards the government, especially on public-private partnership issues. Does this matter?
NOR: I think it’s different for different unions. For nearly all of Unison’s members, the direct employer is some form of public service organisation, usually the government, whereas AEEU members are employed by private companies. When the government is the employer it makes the relationship that much more complex.
MOD: There have always been differences of opinion within the unions. When the Labour Party was set up there were differences. During every Labour government one union or another has had different opinions about the way to proceed.
Hannah Blythyn: There seems to be a general assumption that all trade unions must have the same line, but you don’t have that. I mean, MPs and party members don’t always agree.
NOR: I don’t think any of the unions are opposing public sector reform. We all agree there is a need for investment and modernisation, but it’s about how you do that. And that’s where we have differences of opinion.
The Labour Party has turned to business and wealthy individuals as funders. Is this a threat at all to the union link with the Labour Party?
HB: I wouldn’t see it so much as a threat because the unions have always supported the Labour Party through thick and thin. These big businesses and individuals have only been giving money since the Labour Party has been winning. I think it is important though that Labour doesn’t neglect, or take advantage of, their core supporters to the advantage of big businesses.
NOR: Our role is enshrined in the party itself. We are a lot more transparent and open in the sense of our involvement.
BB: I don’t think the unions are going to be bothered if people want to put a few more quid in; they’ll have to put in a hell of a lot to get anywhere near the direct and indirect support the unions give the party.
NOR: That indirect support is really important. You know, the people that are out on election day, the resources, the offices. It was so important this year in the general election.
MC: I think we have to be clear about our arguments. On the one hand, we worry that by having funding by wealthy individuals and big business they may be gaining undue influence. But, on the other hand, we say the Labour Party should not neglect its core supporters. What we are implying is that actually we should have that undue influence, and we should have the access that comes by giving them the money.
Colenzo Jarrett-Thorpe: We have cleaned up political affiliations since we’ve been in power. I don’t see it as a problem, encourage as many people as possible to contribute towards the Labour Party. For the trade unions, the Labour Party is the only effective vehicle in government that can deliver the agenda that our members want. If business want to contribute to that, really it’s then endorsing some of our policies and principles.
MOD: You need to make a distinction between trade unions and the Labour Party, and trade unions and Labour in government. Within the Labour Party, unions would look at involving members in policy-making processes. But unions work with Labour in government and with employers separately, to shape policies.
Is there a need for the Labour-union link to be strengthened in any way?
NOR: On a national level we are getting it right, but at a local level more needs to be done. How do we get people, especially the young, politically active? I don’t think we’ve sorted out those local affiliations to the constituency parties. There’s a real gap.
CJT: All trade unions have to step up local affiliations to the party and step up local activities in the party, especially as there are elections every year. We’ve got to be not just involved in national policy forums, but local policy forums.
MOD: The policy forums and Partnership in Power process was okay but there probably wasn’t enough involvement at grassroots level.
MC: I disagree slightly with what has been said before; and this certainly isn’t union policy. I don’t think the trade unions should be institutionalising activity within the Labour Party, but I do think that they should be facilitating it. As a union member, I want to have more input into policy making. I think we as trade unions have to look at how we can engage much more effectively in policy making, not as an organisation with a set of demands, but an organisation that facilitates a group of people that broadly agree with the aims of the Labour Party.
NOR: The link also works in terms of unions being the communication channel representing those people that actually do the jobs, who know best how to modernise them.
Some unions are showing willingness to co-operate with other parties, the Lib Dems for example. What does this mean for the relationship between the Labour Party and the trade unions?
CJT: We have political funds in most of our trade unions and lots of people paying into that fund aren’t members of any political party. They recognise that we have to play on the political scene in order to ensure our policies are pushed forward in Parliament. If it means talking to the Liberal Democrats to see if we can get support, I don’t see a problem with that. I don’t think it damages our relationship with the Labour Party.
HB: Before you start criticising the people who are thinking of working with the Lib Dems you have to look at the devolved assembly in Wales and the parliament in Scotland, where Labour are working in coalition with the Lib Dems and pursuing policies that are in conflict with the party nationally.
BB: The days have gone where you can’t talk to this person or you can’t talk to that person. Each individual union, or unions as a group, have the right to deal with whoever they want to talk to if that’s what it takes to deliver for your members.
Do you think the government is striking the right balance between business and the unions?
MOD: There is frustration because the process worked really well on the national minimum wage but hasn’t on information and consultation rights. MC: We have to recognise that nobody sees those boundaries between employers and employees any more outside the Labour movement.
CJT: Unions and business can, should and have been working together for years. It isn’t new. MC: It’s not for government to strike that right balance. The government simply gives us the playing field and now because we’ve got Fairness at Work we have got a more level playing field.
NOR: It is about striking a balance. Not giving the unions a blank cheque. Instead of a closed shop, you go out there and find out what your members want and what they need.
CJT: Whatever legislation comes in and becomes the law, it’s still up to trade unions to make the most of them. It’s up to us, as active trade unionists, to go out there and recruit members and to activate, motivate and inspire people.
BB: The balance is not completely right, we’re not really unhappy about it but it could be a bit better.
Membership amongst the young is still not as high as it could be. How can trade unions tackle this?
MC: There’s an image problem certainly, which is down to the anti-trade union legislation that went through. In the past, people had a rough grasp of what trade unions were about because you went into a workforce with a trade union already there. But that isn’t the case any more, especially for young people who work in a more casual, part-time, flexible job market.
NOR: Trade unions are still very bad at recruiting, especially young people. People need to be educated about the role of trade unions. We need to communicate with the young through mediums they understand and they’re familiar with using, like the internet. We also have a role in getting young people to work in public sector jobs.
HB: Image is a big problem, not just with trade unions but politics in general. Young people are more cynical and sceptical than they used to be, because there is so much information at their finger tips.
MOD: I think there are two problems with the unions’ image. One is that people have an image of unions as coming on TV when a factory has closed. But for a lot of people there isn’t an image at all. You have to look at how you bring people into the union but how you keep people in as well. I think we need to have people view unions as organisations that will help you out when you’re at work.
CJT: Politics in general, and trade unions, are seen as part of the establishment. They’re not going to have the same image as eco-warriors. Far more young people are going on to further and higher education than 20 years ago, with the government putting more focus on training as well. We should focus on making sure people in new jobs are members of trade unions and that students are members of trade unions.
BB: You can do lots of things, with various campaigns linking with other youth groups. But the bottom line is you have to go out and tell them what trade unions are about.