JA: What difference has a Labour government made to your members and what would a Tory government mean?
ML: I think, to be honest, that Cameron is an airbrushed Tory and an airbrushed Thatcher. Clearly from the basic rhetoric, they’re back to square one – slash and burn. I lived through the 1980s as a full-time [trade union] officer and it was awful. For a government that came in and said ‘Labour isn’t working’ and then had over 3.5 million unemployed, it was a sick joke. And I foresee this happening again. What we [Labour] have done in terms of education, the NHS, is fantastic. And Cameron is using precisely the same rhetoric as Thatcher did in the beginning – it’s all waste, we’ll solve this problem by ridding ourselves of waste. The truth is that there will be substantial cuts, there will be substantial job losses in the public sector which will have an immediate impact on consumption. We are in such a delicate position that, if you start doing that, there’s going to be substantial increases in unemployment.
All the good things the government has done – the car scrappage scheme was a good example because we produce steel for a lot of those cars – and the investment in schools and hospitals and that sort of thing, they [the Tories] will start to dismantle those things. The Tories have opposed every single initiative that has helped people stay in work.
JA: And what do you think the Tories will mean for the trade union movement?
ML: I think it’s clear already that, from the press in recent days, we’re not the flavour of the month. I don’t think the Tories understand that it was the trade union movement that created the Labour party, it’s [the party’s] political voice. [The Labour party was created] because working people wanted a voice in parliament in order that they had a mechanism to change the life of working people – that was the whole purpose of the exercise.
JA: But isn’t there an argument to be had about the role of the modern trade union movement in partnership with the Labour party?
ML: Well I mean that’s a different internal argument, how you democratise some of the trade unions. The fact of the matter is that we are the most transparent provider of funds to a political party ever. We’re so regulated as to be unbelievable. In no way would we get away with what [Lord] Ashcroft got away with, because we have to be transparent, we have to have a ballot every 10 years to maintain a political fund – if we didn’t, we couldn’t take any action at all against a government, which would be crazy.
Having a political fund doesn’t necessarily mean that you automatically support the Labour party, but the requirement to have a political fund [means] we have to through a whole series of hoops to get one, and our members have to vote on that as individual members. So there is a democratic process that is not there for contributors to the Conservative party. Well, Ashcroft doesn’t even pay tax and he’s a legislator, that’s bizarre. And it is rich for the Tory party to say Charlie Whelan is wielding all this power on behalf of Unite when Ashcroft was responsible to no one. At least he [Whelean] is held responsible to the members for everything he does. Ashcroft, who’s he responsible to?
JA: But the Tories seem determined, if they get in, to break the linkn between the unions and Labour. Are you not concerned about this?
ML: Naturally I’m concerned that they’re trying to break the link through some sort of revelation, but I think that you will never break the link between Labour and the trade union movement. The Labour movement is the trade union movement, it is synonymous, it is our political voice. What are they complaining about? Who does the Tory party represent? Big business. There has to be a balance in politics and I think that we will ensure the whole trade union movement will fight to retain that.
JA: Do you think that it’s good that one union such as Unite can effectively buy the Labour party?
ML: I don’t think it does buy the Labour party, actually. I think that there are the unions that are in TULO [the Trade Union and Labour Party Liaison Organisation] and I attend the meetings obviously. There are different views in TULO. There’s usually a consensus at the end of the process, but there are different views about our relationship with the government, what the priorities should be in terms of the Warwick process, in terms of the manifesto. There is a healthy debate internally about what is the right thing to do in certain circumstances, and I think that debate is essential in terms of saying it doesn’t mean to say that, because you’re biggest, you have the best ideas.
JA: And you’re not concerned that there’s a disproportionate effect of Unite over the selection of candidates in the Labour party, for example?
ML: Well, I think if I was Derek [Simpson] or Tony [Woodley] I would exercise that power very sparingly. I would be sensitive to the fact that they are one of a number of unions and those views should be taken into account. Woodley is chairman of TULO and Paul Kenny [GMB general secretary] is vice chair. It’s fundamentally important that they take into account everybody’s point of view. And I think in fairness, up until now at least, that’s the case.
JA: What would you say to disillusioned union members who don’t feel like voting Labour?
ML: I think they need to think of two things. Is this glass half empty or half full? I think that the government has done, particularly in public services, a great job – standards there have improved enormously. In terms of trade union rights, they are everything that we wanted – the minimum wage, the right to be recognised. Those fundamental things have been put right. Of course, there are always things we need.
The alternative [to a Labour government] is unthinkable because, as I said, I profoundly believe the Tories have not changed. They can airbrush their policies as much as they like. The reality is, take away the airbrushing, they’re back to Thatcher.
JA: Union leadership still seems to be far too male, given where we are. Do you think trade unions do enough to encourage women to get to the top of their organisations and become shop stewards?
ML: There are a growing number of women who are on the general council of the TUC, and I have to say they aren’t backward in coming forward. In terms of my own union, of course, the steel industry, because of its very nature, is dominated by men. What we are attempting to do is place women in very senior positions. My finance director is a woman. We have four regional directors, two of which are women. I think, increasingly, our people in the field, they’re about 40-50% women. We have young people, we have middle-aged people, we have a mix of people. I think it’s a good mix – you need experience and you need the enthusiasm and commitment of youth. So you throw those things together and you hopefully get the right ingredients.