We’re going to have a referendum on independence. The SNP won the election, and at some point in this parliament, they will hold a referendum. What Scottish Labour needs to do is decide, rationally, what our line on the referendum is going to be.
We’ve been fighting the SNP for so long and so bitterly, yet this is not a question that ever seems to be considered.
Bear with me here.
The referendum is the SNP’s game, and you can’t ever win by playing someone else’s game.
I suspect I can say with confidence that the Scottish Labour Party will not be campaigning for a ‘yes’ vote, but can we win by campaigning for a ‘no’?
One of our key weaknesses as a Party is the perception that the SNP are more patriotic, more confident in how they view our nation’s future. We are also perceived as negative, and, at times, as ‘talking Scotland down’. Some of this has been our own fault.
If we campaign for a ‘no’ vote, then whatever the outcome of the referendum, does that not entrench those perceptions which led to such a sound defeat in the recent election?
The two scenarios are: we campaign for a ‘no’ vote, we lose, and Labour becomes a political irrelevance, a dinosaur, the Tories, in a future independent Scotland; we campaign for a ‘no’ vote, we win, but our associations with negativity and lack of patriotism become more deeply ingrained with the electorate, and they punish us at the next Scottish elections. A negative campaign may resonate, but the electorate will not thank us for playing to their own fears.
There are, I admit, other scenarios, we could run a positive campaign extolling the benefits of the Union, if after decades of negative campaigning we could shake off our bad habits, but that still places us on the nationalists’ stage, positioning us a Unionist party.
And we’re not, in case we’ve forgotten.
The criticism which we have levelled at the SNP since time immemorial, in the main because it’s true, is that their concern is not really with improving the lives of the people of Scotland, about more jobs, better health and education systems, but instead has just one goal, separation.
Aren’t we in danger of becoming the opposite, obsessed with the continuation of the Union at any cost, even the continuation of our own party as a force for the common good? If we spend the next couple of years fretting over a referendum, the timing or wording of which we have no real control over, what reason are we giving the Scottish people to support us?
So, what’s the alternative? We could spend the next parliament in two ways: firstly, innovating within our own party to create a coherent, dynamic approach to improving the lives of the people of Scotland and communicating those ideas to the electorate; secondly, holding the SNP Government to account on the issues the Scottish Parliament was created to have responsibility for.
When the referendum comes, we leave it to the Scottish people to decide, then we work with the outcome.
It’s a gamble, I’d be the first to admit that, but we need to stop and think about what we’re doing, about what our real priorities are as a movement, before we blunder our way into the very role that the nationalists would like to cast us in. Instead of the bluster, let’s caw canny.
I’m hoping for a multi-option referendum, where we can campaign for devo-max but not independence. Not sure if the SNP will allow us that out. I definitely agree that letting the SNP set the stage and tying ourselves to “no” before we’ve seen the question is a very bad idea.
“When the referendum comes, we leave it to the Scottish people to decide, then we work with the outcome.” Are you clinically insane? To say that you will leave the referendum to to the Scottish people, are you trying to say that you will not campaign for a “No” because it might make you seem unpatriotic? I’m British and never consider myself Scottish, I am a British patriot and a supporter of the Labour Party, you really would just sit back and let it take its flow while the SNP play all the tricks in the book. Yes Scotland is full of scummy Nationalists, and I hate that. In my world I’d love to scrap the Scottish Parliament, and Scrap everything about pathetic Nationalism of Scotland, England, Wales and Irish wannabes living in Ireland, the ones that always go on how they are Irish and not British, the ones that wave those digusting Green, Orange and White colour. You can never, never, ever give up! You will do a decent campaign on the positives of the Union, and you will warn Scots of the threat, I don’t mean you personally though the Labour party yes. The Unionists HAVE to Unite on this matter NOW. Cameron can shut hell up about “respecting” the SNP, what he means is he will respect the end of the Union so he can reign totally over England without Scots votes making him have a coalition in the future. Stop being a coward and thinking of sighting the SNP to save our bloody Union.
Are you telling us that you are feeling we should not campaign on the matter and let the SNP run the whole agenda? You really need to get your priorities straight, THIS IS WHY YOU LOSE, this is why YOU ARE INCOMPETENT, these idiotic ideas are driving me insane, to think you feel we should “let the Scottish people decide” and “work with the outcome”, so if the outcome is Independence from the UK, you will be happily enough to let that be? knowing you never campaigned, get to grips. I could really smack my self in the face after reading that,
“It’s a gamble”? I think the word appeasement would be more appropriate. The idea that a unionist party like the labour party should just sit back and do nothing during a referendum campaign to destroy our United Kingdom is shocking, worrying and offensive. Labour have created this mess with their badly handled devolution policy claiming it would remove the separatist threat when in fact it has given a platform for them to do a lot of damage. The Labour party must vigorously defend the United Kingdom and prevent a break up. That should be the primary action of all Labour MPs and MSPs over the next 5 years. The defence of the union must begin now not wait for the campaign to begin or be over. Long live the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. NO surrender to separatists or their appeasers.
I would like to give you the benefit of the doubt and say you weren’t proposing a total withdrawal from the independence debate, and were instead advocating a cleverer campaign. Salmond has already said he would quite like a two-question paper, one on independence and one on greater devolution (in the instance that independence is voted down). For the SNP, such a move is to build in a safety net so that they can continue what they see as the unstoppable march to independence; for us, it’s a golden opportunity to take the initiative and advocate a positive future for Scotland within the framework of the Union – even if that means advocating federalism.
We need to be prepared to think about these issues but in all honesty I think it is possible to be both patriotic and in favour of the union. A great many of the triumphs of Scottish innovation came about within the Union. Adam Smith – born after the Union and lived in a Scotland flourishing as a result of the trade and opportunity the Union brought, Dunlop inventer of the modern tyre in the 19th centrury, Cloning work at the Roslin Institute, just to take one example from each century since the Union. The Union allowed Scotland to flourish in an ever more connected world and the exchange of ideas between Scotland and the rest of the UK and beyond contributed directly to the enlitenment. Scottish soldiers fought bravely and many of our relatives died protecting Brittain against Fascism it would have been a very different fight with Scotland opting in or out drecting an independant army. Scotland is the fantastic place it is because of the Union. I’m concerned about protecting Scotland’s future which I think is better in the Union than out of it. My concern is not so much about the short term financial arrangements looking a few years back and a few years forward isnt the basis for a once and for always decision like this. Argue all you like about the finances but the next 30 years while we might (just) have some oil left might at best (although the evidence is poor for this) leave a Scottish treasury with more than under the Barnett formula but this is a decision about the next 300 years and the three hundered after that. Together the UK is greater than the sum of its parts and just because at times some parts feel they fare less well than at others isnt an argument for breaking up the UK. I’d like Scottish Labour to be proudly Scottish and proud of the benefits of Union.
Scrap it all, “scummy nationalist” declaims the staunch 97kcoats; “no surrender” says the “British Patriot”; if the Scottish people decide that ” the outcome is Independence from the UK, you will be happily enough to let that be?” fumes the progressive democrat. It appears the evolution of the Labour party into the Fundamentalist Unionist party continues unabated. Just listen to yourselves. Progressive? Look it up in a dictionary.
As someone who has no idea whether independence is a good idea or not, can someone here list some POSITIVE reasons for Scotland to stay as part of the UK? To be honest 97Kcoats above sounds like he is a BNP fascist with some of his comments and are very off putting for saying NO to the union. It is his kind of NEGATIVE bordering on racist tone which puts myself and other undecideds off voting for Labour, let alone whether we should stay in the union or not. I do however vote red.
I’m quite astounded by some of the comments here, and have to ask is the Labour Party still an upholder of democratic values. I think the author of this article understands something that some of the posters are failing to grasp. The SNP are a democratic party and only exist because people in Scotland vote for them. An obvious fact that seems to have been overlooked by some. Not only do people vote for the SNP, but they vote for them is such numbers that the run the government, with an absolute majority, and have the largest number of councillors of any part in Scotland. This is not about the SNP, this is about the Scottish electorate. Talk of “No surrender to separists or their appeasers” is to set yourself up in opposition to the Scottish electorate, not simply the SNP. The author raises a valid question, in my view, shouldn’t Labour be thinking of how it would adapt to the new environment of an independent Scotland, should that be the will of the Scottish people? Why not? If it’s about considerations of potential Labour success at Westminster would be affected then you would be guilty of placing the interests of party before the interests of the nation (Scotland), and if so, then many people in Scotland will decide that Labour is no longer fit to represent them.
Could someone here please tell me what frightens them so much about self-determination for Scotland? Surely it is insulting to the Scottish populace to tell them that they alone in the modern world, are incapable of running their own affairs? Is self-determination not just a normal state of affairs for all modern progressive nations in the world today? What is it about the UK that should appeal to the Scottish populace? Playing devil’s advocate here and wondering, genuinely, where are the benefits to Scotland from having the majority of its control centred in Westminster?
Are you saying that these people that wish for an independent Scotland are the only true patriots? There is a big difference between nationalism and patriotism, the Scottish Labour party can bring out the best of being British and promote why we are better in the United Kingdom. The SNP on the other hand will attack the union and all British values right through the upcoming campaign and somehow you say this should be marked as “patriotism” towards Scotland. Then you go on to say that the Scottish Labour Party should not get obsessed with the constitutional future of this country and that we should let the Scottish public decide the outcome. Well of course we will let the people decide the outcome this is not North Korea. Your comments you have made on this article are shameful towards the union and to the United Kingdom. You would really like the SNP to start campaigning for a “yes” vote and for Scottish Labour to sit back and do nothing but wait and see what the Scottish people think. How the hell are you a Member of Parliament?
There was a time when I would never consider voting for Labour because I believe in independence for my nation. I don’t always vote SNP, but I do always vote for pro-independence parties, or independents. When speaking with Labour activists in the past, I’ve always explained that I would consider voting for a Scottish Labour Party post-independence. However, after Iraq, the shameless lies about Scotland’s fiscal position, the blocking of a referendum(democracy ) in the last parliament, your totalitarian tendencies, and the hysterical and patronising British nationalist rantings of your elected representatives and people like 97koats and simon, I would never, ever consider voting for your party. I would describe myself as a progressive, socialist leaning, liberal sort of person btw. We could have been on the same side once, but for myself and countless other Scottish people you have really, really, blown it.
How pathetic are some of the comments on here! Here is some quotes: “we leave it to the Scottish people to decide, then we work with the outcome.” Are you clinically insane?” ” I’d love to scrap the Scottish Parliament” “you will warn Scots” “to think you feel we should let the Scottish people decide and work with the outcome” No wonder Labour lost! This is the kind of “Scummy” people Labour are left with. Toxically Negative, self-loathing, self-cringing, low self-confident, bottom of the barrel kind-of unaware traitors that eat away at the social fabric of our nation, Scotland. What sad sad people unionists can be. Let the people decide. I’m a strong SNP supporter but I think Judith Fisher is possibly rite on this one. Personally, I think Labour would cringe at some of the other comments on here.
The people of Scotland will decide the outcome of a referendum vote, 67kcoats just take a good look at what you wrote you are the vile bile unionist who shows no respect for any nation you have the cheek to call a nationalist scummy find a deserted island and leave our country to the true patriots
This is the most intelligent Labour article I’ve read in years, with one or two glaring exceptions IMO. 300 years ago the Greeks said: To thine own selves be true …..and……know thine enemy To say that the SNP is more interested in ‘separation’ than jobs, health, education etc is ludicrous. The SNP sees ‘Independence’ as the means of attracting and creating jobs and increasing the the flow of money which will improve Health and Education etc. The reason for the May landslide is that they have already done a good job in those areas of Government as a minority and the people clearly wanted more. The clue to Labour’s other major problem is in the word ‘Scottish’ as a description of Labour. Reality check. Everyone knows Labour in Scotland is a sub branch of London. To be taken seriously in the ‘new’ political landscape, that has to change. But it looks like at least one Labour supporter is on the right track. Good Luck. Scotland needs a strong Labour as well as a strong SNP.
Speaking as someone who long ago made the shift from Labour to the SNP (and never regretted it) it is heartening to see that there is still a faint spark of intelligent life in the Labour Party in Scotland. Get with the programme guys, stop obsessing about the Union and start thinking of what sort of society Scotland will be post-Independence. Low tax small state as Ireland? High tax big state full social democracy as most of Scandinavia? And start thinking of what role a Scottish Labour Party might play in that future. Best wishes from the SNP and travel in hope.
Labour aren’t a unionist party? Finally some progress.
We are living in a world where no nation can operate remain isolated from the decisions taken by others. What China does about the exchange rate could be more important than any policy made in the UK let alone Scotland. Many large PLC’s are bigger than Scotland and have more effect in the world . In the age in which we live, Europe (even if it got its act together) is hardly big enough to control its own destiny. All this nationalism is out dated, we do not like the world and want to get off at the next stop. A reasonable response but somewhat impractical. We all need to give a lot of thought as to how we can be big enough to have influence on the international stage while devolving power as far as possible to local control this is a universal problem not just for Scotland. Having said all that any support for Free Yorkshire?
Interesting article. Some of the other posters here definitely sound like they should be in the BNP rather than the Labour party. The argument for left of centre voters in Scotland has to be – do we put socialism first, or the UK first.. ? Personally, I am starting to think independence might just be a good thing, that could give socialism in Scotland a fresh start. It would certainly free Scotland from years of Tory rule.
Very interesting! Key point: majority, mandate & manifesto – SNP can do what they like in shaping referendum. Further complication is the likelihood of “further powers” for the Scottish Parliament being considered in a second question when we vote: be it defined then as “fiscal autonomy” or similar to Calman or what used to be “devo max” but now we hear “independence lite” more often. Labour should feel instinctively at home in this terrain but it’s also the safer bet for First Minister Salmond to get something positive for the SNP in the referendum. Two questions make it more likely we have to be positively campaigning for a preferred outcome that we assess as best for Scotland. #BetterOffTogether #OurUnitedKingdom
In an independent Scotland, I’d probably be a Labour voter. I’m not at the moment, I’m a ‘scummy’ nationalist. I’d have thought the priority of the Labour movement would be to work to better the lot of the working class, whatever country they might be in, not obsessing over whether that country is one of 5 or 55 million people. Labour’s best referendum strategy, and that of the other parties, is the following – a free vote. Let those MPs and MSPs who strongly believe in the Union tell us why honestly, rather than being ‘told to’ by Ed, Dave, Nick or whoever heads a No campaign. Let those who are ambivalent or even in favour say so without fear of upsetting their leaders. In other words, let’s think the whole subject over, discuss, reflect and give ourselves the best chance to make the right discussion for our country. I’m pretty shocked by a couple of the posts above – I imagine the idea of a free vote would be anathema to the writers of them.
The comments by 97kcoats and simon are truely shocking as is the fact that 97kcoats claims to be a supporter of the Labour Party yet none of the other Labour commentators have distanced themselves from his comments.
Some of the comments above are absolutely mind-boggling. The party of Keir Hardie and John McLean reduced to a shower of knuckle-dragging pseudo-BNP morons whinging about their “Britishness”… In a post-Independent Scotland I’ll be voting for whatever party leans towards true socialism, but based on much of what has been said here I very much doubt it will ever be the Tory-inspired Blair/Brown/Milliband farago masquerading as the Labour Party.
I am an English Labour Party member living in East Lothian and I don’t understand Scottish Labour’s hardline opposition to the SNP. I moved to Scotland in part because I knew the Tories would eventually get back in to Westminster but they would never rule from Holyrood. We should be celebrating the left leanings of the Scottish people and the two parties that represent most of them in Holyrood. Our children won’t have to pay £30000 to go to University. Our NHS isn’t getting broken up for the benefit of the private sector. I love living in Scotland. I would prefer Scotland to continue to be in the UK but if its not it will still be a better place than Tory England. I agree with the original article that if Labour ties itself to negative campaigning, running down Scotland and irrational arguments we don’t do ourselves justice or any favours for the future.
When decision time comes I have absolutely no doubt that Labour,having secured a Scottish Parliament in the first place, will agree to campaign to remain within the United Kingdom. To opt out of taking a stance on this momentous constitutional issue is untenable for a serious political party.